Benbrika: ''Yeah, it's not expensive.''

SIO39: ''Even if you got 500kg of explosives, um, you only need one piece of wire ... one piece of fuse. Even one stick of dynamite is enough.''

Benbrika: ''That's it, yeah ... it's a big noise, huh?''

SIO39: ''You let me know, you let me know when the time comes.''

Benbrika: ''Allah willing.''


AFP Commissioner Mick Keelty said while there was no firm evidence Mr Howard was a target of the Benbrika group, when somebody like a prime minister was named by such a group it placed added burdens on police and resources.

''Had an attack occurred on the prime minister, whose security we are responsible for, and people were reading these listening device transcripts in hindsight, they would be saying to us, `Well it was there in black and white, why didn't you do something about it?','' he said.

''So there is a lot of pressure in these operations to get it right.''

Mr Keelty said the 16-month Pendennis investigation was incredibly stressful, with the constant fear Benbrika's cell would commit a terror attack.

He said investigators had to keep weighing up the ramifications of going in too early and jeopardising prosecution chances and going in too late and risking an incident and the inevitable public backlash for not preventing it.

''They were walking a constant tightrope. It's a fine line between going in too early and going in too late,'' Mr Keelty said.

If one of Benbrika's followers slipped under the surveillance radar - and it is very hard to keep a large group of people under surveillance 24 hours a day - and committed a terrorist act, then senior heads would have rolled.

Pendennis officers arrested Benbrika and eight alleged members of his cell on November 8, 2005.

Some of those arrested applied for bail in Melbourne Magistrates' Court that day.

There was drama both inside and outside the court.

Supporters of the accused sat in court and later abused Pendennis officers in the lobby. One Pendennis agent grabbed the ringleader, twisted his arm up his back and frogmarched him out of court.

The supporters then took their anger out on the waiting media in William Street. They attacked TV cameramen and newspaper photographers, including the Herald Sun's Craig Borrow.

Footage of the attack was shown that night on TV and photographs appeared in newspapers the next morning.

Two of those charged and convicted over the attack on the media, Bassam Raad and his cousin Majed Raad, were later also charged with terrorism offences and were this week found not guilty on those charges.

Inside the court, Victoria Police Pendennis member Det Sen-Sgt Chris Murray was telling Abdullah Merhi's bail hearing that Merhi was a fervent devotee of the most radical form of Islam and wanted to become Australia's first suicide bomber.

It was alleged that Merhi had gone to Benbrika seeking permission to become a martyr in Australia.

''He wanted to die here. He said he wanted to be a martyr,'' Sen-Sgt Murray said.

''It was quite clear he wanted to go the way of ... similar to a suicide bomber. I'll put it in my terms, he wanted to kill himself.'' Most of those arrested chose to give ''no comment'' interviews when questioned by Pendennis investigators.

But a taped interview police did with Amer Haddara immediately after his arrest was illuminating.

The court heard how Benbrika and would-be suicide bomber Abdullah Merhi discussed the 2004 bombing of the Spanish commuter train system in Madrid, which killed 191 people, and indicated it would be good to carry out a similar attack in Melbourne.

He admitted attending Benbrika's classes and he identified several others he knew through Benbrika.

He also admitted he wished he could commit violent jihad and become a martyr.

He said the circumstances existed for jihad to be religiously approved in Australia because it had joined with the US to oppress Muslims.


Police: ''Can you tell us what the term jihad means?''

Haddara: ''Jihad, if you look in the Koran it means military struggle.''

Police: ''A military struggle between who?''

Haddara: ''Between Muslims and oppressors.''

Police: ''Can you give me an example of who an oppressor could actually be?''

Haddara: ''The US, Australia, any country that is attacking any other country to take over for land.''

Police: ''Do you understand that by living in Australia you're under legislated law. We're not under Islamic rule here.''

Haddara: ''And I'm telling you that what you're doing is considered oppression.''

Police: ''So you're saying the best way for this country would be go the way of Islam?''

Haddara: ''By all means.''

Police: ''Do you respect the legislated law?''

Haddara: ''I don't. No I don't respect that.''

Police: ''So you prefer Sharia (Islamic) law?''

Haddara: ''No doubt.''

Police: ''Do you wish to undertake jihad?''

Haddara: ''As a Muslim, every Muslim tries his best to please his Lord. Once he has some certainty in that ... certainty that he may be entering paradise. So if jihad is something, a solution that will lead me down that path, why not.''

Police: ''Would you go overseas to undertake jihad?''

Haddara: ''If I see a path I will.''

Police: ''If somebody asked you to undertake jihad here, would you?''

Haddara: ''If there is certain evidence that proves that it is allowed, then I will.''

Police: ''And when is it allowed?''

Haddara: ''It's allowed once oppression is applied.''

Police: ''Do you think oppression is happening in this country at the moment?''

Haddara: ''It is.''

Police: ''You've said that you'd be willing to undertake militant jihad.''

Haddara: ''No doubt.''

Police: ''Do you consider yourself a mujahidin?''

Haddara: ''I wish.''

Bassam Raad (circled) pulling Channel 7 cameraman Matt Rose to the ground during a brawl with the media outside Melbourne Magistrates' Court.

Police: ''What you're saying, and, again, correct me if I am wrong, you'd happily ... if there was a jihad against the Australian government you would take part in that because it, what you were saying before, the Australian government is oppressing against ...''

Haddara: ''Yes.''

Police: ''Islam.''

Haddara: ''The fact that Australia's ruling our country at the moment ... well, I believe the Muslims should rule.''

Police: ''So it's your hope that history will repeat itself and that Muslims will rule?''

Haddara: ''No doubt. They can, no doubt.''

Police: ''What's a martyr?''

Haddara: ''A martyr is basically anyone that dies in battle.''

Police: ''And what happens after they die?''

Haddara: ''Obviously they go, as, as Allah, to whom be ascribed all perfection and majesty, promised in the Koran, he promised them paradise.''

Police: ''Would you be happy to martyr yourself?''

Haddara: ''I wish ... I'd love to go to paradise.''

Police: ''Now what I would call a suicide bomber, a person who straps on a bomb vest and runs into, well, we'll use Iraq, for example.''

Haddara: ''Mmm.''

Police: ''That's my idea of a martyrdom operation, would be someone who drives a truck laden with explosives or a bloke with, with a bomb vest on who goes and tries to kill as many Americans as what he possibly could. Is that a fair saying to what a martyrdom operation is?''

Haddara: ''Most definitely.''

Police: ''Well, would you go to that extent?''

Haddara: ''If I had to and there was such extremes, yes.''